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  #1  
Старый 20.02.2009, 16:31
ben ben вне форума
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По умолчанию Question about a point from the intensive

I'm going to copy and paste from a gchat conversation I had with Qiang about the wrapping/spiraling through the joints... Would love to hear anyone else's take on this.

me: ok, so when you say you're trying to spiral through the joints... lets say I'm doing absorb project... I mean the wrist is essentially a hinge joint, so are you just thinking "absorb the yin", then the same thing on the elbow all the way down?
down to the feet, which are wrapping

Johnny: yeah, I'm thinking of absorbing on the yin, but I'm also trying to feel how certain rotations affect the absorb/project feel. Like rotating the radius/ulna and humerus. Going one way makes the wrapping of the pinky back to the dantian feel stronger, and going another way makes the connection to the mingmen feel better. Does that make sense?
me: I think so, for the upper body. how do you do that in the lower body? especially knees hips.

me: and just to be clear, you're saying (for instance) if you frontally rotate the shoulders when you absorb, it helps keep the 13 pts.

Johnny: I've been working at it from the knees and ankle. Remember sifu showed moving the lower leg clockwise and counter clockwise to generate different spirals up?
right, frontal rotation of the shoulders, though you also have a small range of sagittal motion at the shoulders.

me: saggital going back to absorb
and about the knees and ankles, I don't think I really understood it. I remember him saying it, but the knee is a hinge joint.
it only moves in one way.
hence my confusion.

Johnny: The knee is technically a hinge joint, but it does have a limited range of motion off the hinge direction.
Plus you can move up to the hips to generate the turning motion.
(i.e. involve the upper leg too)

me: ok, so for instance, when I wrap the feet, that means i'm always wrapping the right foot clockwise, left foot counter. if I am spiralling out, that means thatthe ankles are moving slightly in the horizontal plane inthe same direction as the wrapping? same with hips?

Johnny: The ankles don't have to move out the same direction was the feet wrapping.
If you can move the lower leg in two different direction circles, the ankles can wrap both directions.

me: ok, I understand that the ankles don't have to move in the same direction, but what I'm asking is, if you're trying to spiral up the outside, then do the ankles move in the same direction? and does the center of the ankle actually move, or does the circle just rotate?

Johnny: I think of the center of the ankle as actually moving. I'm not sure how you could just rotate the center of the ankle.
The shin bone is circling, so how the direction the weight drops through the lower leg into the ankle and to the feet is changing.

me: ok, so now I'm getting somewhere. so the foot wraps, the ankle moves in a horizontal circle either the same as the wrapping or opposite it. the knee "adjusts" even though its a hinge joint, and then the hip kind of drives/lines up the movement (though the hip cannot move horizontally, correct?) to line up the lower/upper body.
?

Johnny: You can move the hips horizontally by using open and close and a little bit of weight shift between the legs. Yeah, but I think you're right, the hips are transferring the force from the legs up to the torso.
  #2  
Старый 21.02.2009, 17:51
Peter Peter вне форума
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You guys are way beyond me. What I noticed was that constantly wrapping the feet creates the feeling in the body of a corkscrew twisting as it moves up and down, which keeps the body and weight very centered. Thus any absorb or project movement made while the feet are wrapping does not seem to unbalance the body, e.g., if I push forward with my arms while wrapping the feet, I have the sense of remaining upright, without any sense of leaning forward, which would be the case if I did a static push without wrapping the feet.

But those are just my impressions, which could be totally wrong.

Peter
  #3  
Старый 24.02.2009, 00:23
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I'f like to first offer the caveat that I'm unclear on the spiraling of the joints in the legs myself but a few points;

I have to split hairs with the classification of the wrist as a hinge joint (think about all the ways you can articulate your hand. In fact I remember watching something on PBS that attributed our ability to do things like play piano to the shape of a single bone in our wrist (compared to chimps). While it's true that the wrist has a much greater range of motion through extension and flexion, there is a significant ROM through radial and ulnar deviation (which is why we need to be convex-convex when we want to create convex energy for example). That same range of motion in more than one plane is just not present in a hinge joint.

I think some of the confusion about spiraling in the lower body (my confusion) is that even in the upper body, if you're drawing circles with the elbow, the motion really happens in the shoulder and is just reflected in the elbow, but the hips don't move as freely, especially with the feet on the ground.

I THINK I'm starting to feel the spin at the ankle clearly, but I've thought that before about other things and have been wrong, so...
Anyway, the spin at the knee seems fairly straightforward in the saggital plane but seems like it would put a lot of shearing force on the joint horizontally and seems impossible in the frontal.

I think its one of those things that I can "just do" to a certain extent but can't explain it or demonstrate clearly since I don't understand it clearly enough myself.
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  #4  
Старый 24.02.2009, 01:09
ben ben вне форума
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It's not splitting hairs, it's true, the wrist isn't a true hinge joint, it's a planar joint. (hence the double convex) I was using shorthand since I was chatting with Johnny.

I'm in the same position, in that I feel like I can do this to a certain extent, but I've found that if i'm unclear about something in I Liq Chuan, that means I'm not doing it right. Hence the discussion.

I spoke with Sifu just now, and he indicated (assuming I understood correctly) that the center of the ankle does move, either saggitally or horizontally when spiralling, and that the knee moves saggitally.
  #5  
Старый 24.02.2009, 02:05
Qiang Qiang вне форума
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So, if the ankles can move sagittally and horizontally, and the knees move sagittally, then frontal motion comes from the hips (ala hip roll)? Or does frontal motion result from combining sagittal and horizontal?
  #6  
Старый 24.02.2009, 04:38
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And what's meant by the center of the ankle? Is it the physical center of the joint complex? The cross-sectional center above the malleolus (sorry my BB doesn't spell check well) or the point where the center of gravity force falls on the top of the foot.

To me all or any of those could be "the ankle".

Up till now I've working on the assumption that the spinning takes place around the point where tib/fib meet the ankle.
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  #7  
Старый 25.02.2009, 05:37
ben ben вне форума
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Good points.

I guess I've been working with the assumption that the center of the ankle is the center of the cross section of the joint... at least that's what I tend to think of when the sifu talks about joining up your partner's centers when you push them... But isn't that also where the weight falls through to the center of the foot?

I'm not a big fan of emoticons, but this one seems appropriate.
  #8  
Старый 25.02.2009, 07:50
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it's funny. i was just watching a video clip of the Sifu talking about understanding the terminology. we would all assume that we know what the ankle is, but maybe we don't!
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  #9  
Старый 27.02.2009, 02:24
Qiang Qiang вне форума
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I'm not all that well versed in anatomy, so I looked up the bones of the ankle and found these diagrams.

It seems to me that the center of the ankle is basically where the tibia connects to the talus. If the weight is primarily dropping to the feet through the tibia, then it seems to me that the center of the tibia/talus junction is the effective center of the ankle?
  #10  
Старый 27.02.2009, 03:20
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which of us see's Sifu first? we can ask him and get a very clear definition and then post back here.
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