I Liq Chuan International Fourm
 

Вернуться   I Liq Chuan International Fourm > Iliqchuan in the World > Main Forum

Закрытая тема
 
Опции темы Поиск в этой теме
  #1  
Старый 02.12.2008, 22:59
Аватар для ashe
ashe ashe вне форума
Senior Member
 
Регистрация: 27.04.2007
Адрес: phoenix, az USA
Сообщения: 318
Отправить сообщение для ashe с помощью Skype™
По умолчанию For the Russians (anybody really)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBd1UABjanA

came across this clip on eF and wanted to hear alex's thoughts on fedor's movement from an I-Liq Chuan perspective, but I'm not able to post in the russian language section at the moment.

anyway, i thought i'd put it up here and see what everyone else had to say.
__________________
Discipline, Concentration & Wisdom
  #2  
Старый 03.12.2008, 01:31
Marty Marty вне форума
Member
 
Регистрация: 23.10.2007
Сообщения: 39
По умолчанию

Well I'm of Russian descent so I'll give my $0.02.
Fedor's standup is, aside from the leg grabs and throws, straight up western boxing and as such is mainly sportive endeavoring to remain squared off to the opponent. There is a distinct if only momentary separation of offense and defense whereas in ILC as far as I have seen to date both occur simultaneously - attack the attack. Additionally, in ILC I believe getting 90 and giving 45 is a core principle. Still one can not argue with the success of slipping punches and bobbing and weaving (they have so far kept my face intact) and I actually prefer to make my fists slightly angled like Fedor though I keep my hands open until punching.
  #3  
Старый 03.12.2008, 09:22
Аватар для ashe
ashe ashe вне форума
Senior Member
 
Регистрация: 27.04.2007
Адрес: phoenix, az USA
Сообщения: 318
Отправить сообщение для ashe с помощью Skype™
По умолчанию

is there anybody in ILC who's not russian? LOL! even i have a ukranian great-grand parent or two.

anyway, there's some things about the clip that i thought were interesting. for instance i would have thought that the idea of slipping a punch was fairly much well within the realm of western boxing, but alex showed me some things last year when i was working with dasha which were very similar and he just basically broke it down into frontal plane and hip roll.

whether or not Sifu teaches that as part of the san da curriculum i don't know, but it sort of opened my eyes a bit to the limits of my understanding of the art.

it was sort of similar to the time we spent watching dekkers v. jamhod. if you only looked at it with a limited sort of understanding then you'd just see a mostly boring thai boxing match, but if you looked at it differently then you saw the sense of timing and distance (which essentially was an expression of their awareness) and even jamhod using some sticky hand to bridge and enter. it really changed the way i look at ILC as well as other arts.
__________________
Discipline, Concentration & Wisdom
  #4  
Старый 03.12.2008, 17:06
Marty Marty вне форума
Member
 
Регистрация: 23.10.2007
Сообщения: 39
По умолчанию

Was what Alex showed you hands on or hands off? I would think that at medium to close range engaging (contact) and moving oneself or one's opponent off center would be more in keeping with ILC.
  #5  
Старый 03.12.2008, 22:16
Аватар для ashe
ashe ashe вне форума
Senior Member
 
Регистрация: 27.04.2007
Адрес: phoenix, az USA
Сообщения: 318
Отправить сообщение для ashe с помощью Skype™
По умолчанию

Цитата:
Was what Alex showed you hands on or hands off? I would think that at medium to close range engaging (contact) and moving oneself or one's opponent off center would be more in keeping with ILC.
that's exactly what i mean though! i think sometimes we get so caught up in the idea of sticking that we get stuck there (on that concept). Sifu has often said in the past that you have to go through the levels of "first you have to sick to him, then you make him have to stick to you, then you can break (all together)".

the way i understand it is that your sense of timing, distance and the point is so refined that you can maintain fullness (i.e. opponent can't penetrate your sphere and can't effect your mass) even without having actual physical contact.

sometimes it's as simple as, if you can just strike in (i.e. opponent is not full) then just strike in. you don't need to be fancy about it.
__________________
Discipline, Concentration & Wisdom
  #6  
Старый 03.12.2008, 23:09
Chris Newell Chris Newell вне форума
Member
 
Регистрация: 30.11.2008
Адрес: Perth, Western Australia
Сообщения: 30
По умолчанию

[/quote] Additionally, in ILC I believe getting 90 and giving 45 is a core principle.[/quote]
Hey guys. Looks like boxing to me too but the actual intention and strategy can be hidden. And I think that boxing is a pretty effective skill to have as an adjunct to ILC. Marty I am not aware of the 90/45 concept above, could you discuss a bit more?
  #7  
Старый 04.12.2008, 09:01
Аватар для ashe
ashe ashe вне форума
Senior Member
 
Регистрация: 27.04.2007
Адрес: phoenix, az USA
Сообщения: 318
Отправить сообщение для ashe с помощью Skype™
По умолчанию

Цитата:
Marty I am not aware of the 90/45 concept above, could you discuss a bit more?
actually i think it would be cool if everyone could jump in here. since i'm here, i'll go first.

in my understanding, i think you can basically break it down to;

90° is the angle you want to maintain with respect to your force relative to your opponents mass

while 45° is the angle you want to create or maintain with respect to your opponents force relative to your mass, and also the point of contact. if you can create a 45° angle at the point, it's tough for the opponent to grab or even apply force (i.e. "no landing").

what do you think marty?

chris, who are you training with? (just curious)
__________________
Discipline, Concentration & Wisdom
  #8  
Старый 04.12.2008, 09:18
Peter Peter вне форума
Member
 
Регистрация: 16.11.2007
Адрес: Vienna
Сообщения: 77
По умолчанию

Цитата:
I am not aware of the 90/45 concept above, could you discuss a bit more?
I understand this to mean that force at a 90 degree angle can puncture the sphere of defense and attack the mass, while force hitting the sphere of defense at a 45 degree angle will be deflected and leave the mass unaffected. Just think of hitting the edge of a spinning ball - your hand will bounce right off. Thus you attack at a 90 degree angle and try to deflect incoming force by creating a 45 degree angle at the point of contact.

Peter
  #9  
Старый 04.12.2008, 19:01
Marty Marty вне форума
Member
 
Регистрация: 23.10.2007
Сообщения: 39
По умолчанию

Цитата:
actually i think it would be cool if everyone could jump in here. since i'm here, i'll go first.

in my understanding, i think you can basically break it down to;

90° is the angle you want to maintain with respect to your force relative to your opponents mass

while 45° is the angle you want to create or maintain with respect to your opponents force relative to your mass, and also the point of contact. if you can create a 45° angle at the point, it's tough for the opponent to grab or even apply force (i.e. "no landing").

what do you think marty?

chris, who are you training with? (just curious)
Yes, this is how I understand the strategy. So while there is no fixed response in dealing with an incoming punch at medium to close range, one way as I see in keeping with this principle it is to attack the strike while moving off center giving your opponent 45 (which places him in a disadvantaged position) and gives you 90 for continued attack. Now, at a greater distance one should be able to negate an attack by applying this principle of only giving one's opponent 45 by continually changing as he changes.
  #10  
Старый 04.12.2008, 23:40
Chris Newell Chris Newell вне форума
Member
 
Регистрация: 30.11.2008
Адрес: Perth, Western Australia
Сообщения: 30
По умолчанию

OK, got it guys. Thanks, that makes sence. I can't recall hearing of the strategy being described that way but I wouldn't be suprised if it isn't on some list of "things to keep in mind" while you're not thinking about what you're doing.
Ashe I've been with the Loftus St. mob for about 6 years now, before that I trained several different external and internal styles and have settled on ILC. I'm middle aged, a fit 55 years old, and have shifted my focus onto longevity rather than getting too juiced up sparring. I've found my recovery periods take longer and longer. But it's great too see the photos etc. like Gongfu posted and get a buzz vicariously through other members taking advantage of the skills on the mat that ILC offers. I wish I'd found this art a little earlier because I've always had a personal style of closing the gap and I particularily enjoyed the JJ skills I've learned. I'm not the least bit suprised that ILC practitioners do well in the ring if you have an apptitude for sparring and some background skills in what to do after you make contact (and take control!).
A good session spinning keeps me satisfied and our group tends to keep it all fairly soft and we work on sensitivity and the mindfullness practice.
Закрытая тема

Опции темы Поиск в этой теме
Поиск в этой теме:

Расширенный поиск

Ваши права в разделе
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is Вкл.
Смайлы Вкл.
[IMG] код Вкл.
HTML код Выкл.
Быстрый переход


Часовой пояс GMT +3, время: 18:19.


vBulletin v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Русский перевод: zCarot, Vovan & Co