Good/bad points of practicing forms?
 

I come from a martial arts background without any form work, and always found the concept of doing forms to be a bit odd. I have also heard many passionate arguments for and against forms - they contain the condensed wisdom of generations of martial artists, they're a waste of time, they help train the body to learn necessary movement patterns, they give the person practicing the form a false sense of security (i.e., mastering a form does not necessarily equal martial ability).

As sort of an informal poll, I would like to hear what you think about doing form work, and whether or not your attitude towards forms has evolved over time.

Peter

Well, one point in favor of the form is as a tool to check yourself with. Many of the applications are next to impossible to make work without circle to center/center to center, etc. So if you're trying to demo applications and you can't make them work smoothly, you know you still have work to do.

I think forms can be a good training tool. Like Ashe said, they're a good way to check yourself. They also provide a means of practice when you're by yourself. I know that I don't have continual access to practice partners, so solo exercises and form are the brunt of my practice.

The downside to forms is when they're used improperly. Just like using a wrong tool for a job, using forms incorrectly gives poor results. Performing a form mindlessly without any understanding of the body mechanics or attention to the movements is pretty much useless.

What do you mean by "a tool to check yourself with"? Do you mean doing the form as a solo practice, or training the applications within the form with a partner to see if they work? I actually do both, but was curious what you primarily had in mind.

Peter

really we just have the 21 and butterfly as a form of common ground that Sifu can fall back on to help discuss and demonstrate certain principles and concepts.

I think that the forms in this style are designed to basically help to demonstrate the principles of what we are learning e.g. the 15 basics, and put them into a dynamic context and trains the body mechanics. In many styles the forms are an integral part of the grading system too. I like forms as part of the mix and it would be nice if we had a few more in my opinion.
I’ve been training the butterfly this year because I want to go for a grading in Aug when Sam comes over. I have found myself also practicing the mirror image of the form we are taught. I.e. at the end, instead of closing I start again and step forward with my left leg and then go through the form as a mirror image of the first round. It’s a good brain exercise too! I got this idea because last year a few of our club completed locally and one comment was the Butterfly form “was a bit short” so I thought OK, I’ll repeat it and do a slight shift by changing the L & R handedness of it.

I was at a seminar this past weekend in Riga, Latvia, and Sifu devoted almost an entire day to teaching various applications from the 21 Form. Understanding how a movement is actually used in an application radically changes one's understanding of the the form itself . E.g., a minor rotation of the forearm may be necessary to lock the opponent's wrist or shoulder, which could be a precondition for the effectiveness of an application. This new awareness then goes back into how the Form is executed, making the movements even more exact. Without this awareness, the practitioner is just waving around his arms, and the form serves no martial purpose.

Thus for me the 21 Form is an ever-evolving training tool which is constantly being revised and refined as my awareness grows.

Peter

As a beginner (which I am), I was first eager to understand the application behind every movement of the form, as it made no sense for me without it. Then however, I was told by my sifu that "one and the same exercise can serve training different purposes. You just have to know what exactly you are training and focus on that." So in my case it was first to focus on my feeling of the body and keeping the structure, and only then appication of separate movements, as one cannot absorb all of this at once when learning. And actually I tend to agree on that - as only when you have succeeded in what you previously were after, you can go to the next level, to the next curve in the upgoing spiral or, if you like, the next layer of the onion, what you guys have been talking about so many times.

Nevertheless, looking into each movement of the form and its application was very useful for progressing and understanding the meaning behind it, and I am thankful to Sigun Sam for showing and explaining that to us.

That's definitely been my experience. By the way - welcome to the English ILC forum! Your English is excellent. Did we meet at the seminar in Riga?

Peter

Thank you Peter. Yes, we met at the seminar, however we did not talk as far as I remember. I had a chance to speak to Miro though.
I am that beginner guy who dared to ask some stupid questions and took the pictures of you all after the grading. :D

welcome to the forum!

thanks ashe.
I must say this forum is really a great idea so that all practitioners of I Liq Chuan can get together to share their thoughts, exchange information and simply chat with people with similar interests. i don't think i have seen any other martial arts style, at least here in Latvia, having such means of communication on the international level. :clapping:

Here's an article which weighs the pros and cons of training with katas/forms:

"... I think all martial artists can agree on is that the study of kata is definitely not a prerequisite for combative effectiveness. There are many highly-effective martial arts that do not include kata on their curriculum. A look at the effectiveness of the able practitioners of many 'kata-less' systems also shows that you can definitely produce effective martial artists without resorting to kata. If kata training is not a must in order to develop fighting skill, why do 'traditional systems' like karate bother with kata?"

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/iain...why-bother.htm

Peter
PS: The author has an entire series of articles devoted to this topic at:
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/arti...-abernethy.htm

I would say that it always depends with what target on mind you do what you are doing. I think that in external styles forms are good to drill the basic practice (basic strikes, kicks, etc.) and to polish the technique, but if it stays there, only on aesthetic level, then there is no other practical use. I would also agree that forms serve as concentrated complex of techniques perhaps to preserve the style as it is and to teach those techniques to students in a catalogued manner.
In inner styles, however, when you concentrate on feeling your body, energy flows, etc. it has a whole different added value. External styles often just imitate the exact movement and bring it to automatism, i.e., train muscle memory.

One of the reasons Karate has kata is for grading purposes. Kata add to the mix of assessable skills associated with each belt. Kata also train and re-enforce combinations but I take the point that they may not necessarily add to an individuals fighting skill. What is the definition of a effective martial artist anyway?
I agree with Ensatus that the practitioner’s intent is important and there is a difference between internal and external styles, the point about muscle memory is a good one. External styles are focused on a collection of specific techniques. And having said that I also know of several internal martial arts that also seem to have an endless list of technical layers in the way of forms etc. e.g. hsing i.

One positive about the form is it can act as a gateway drug for learning more of ILC. I have had several students who were only interested in the form, and only interested in it for the meditative aspects. They have gradually become more and more interested in the other parts of the art without my ever pushing them in that direction.

For me, the form is good because it gets away from the repetitive nature of the 15. It is too easy for me to memorize a correctly felt movement in the (for instance) 15 basic exercises (for instance the upper hand wipe) and repeat the memory of the feeling rather than to experience the flow of correctness. When I do the form however because of the way it combines the elements of the 15 it is both paramount to maintain awareness and also very apparent when I don't, so it can help me re-set the mental component of solo training.

Just out of curiosity, do you vary the aspects in which you perform the form - e.g., say in a meditative fashion, a soft flowing fashion or a more aggressive in-your-face fashion? It seems to me that the nature of the form radically changes based on the intent of the person performing the form (which keeps it interesting).

Peter

No, I don't consciously mediate the form. I let people see what they are going to see. My goal in the form is harmonizing movement and unifying the 13 pts. Even when teaching or performing.

If I tried to do it aggressively, or flowingly, I would change a fundamental quality of the form.

Butterfly Form vs. 21 Form?
 

Is this true for both forms - the Butterfly Form and the 21 Form, or do you have a different approach to the Butterfly Form?

I am now working on the applications for the 21 as well as the basic choreography for the Butterfly.

Peter