For the Russians (anybody really)
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBd1UABjanA

came across this clip on eF and wanted to hear alex's thoughts on fedor's movement from an I-Liq Chuan perspective, but I'm not able to post in the russian language section at the moment. :confused:

anyway, i thought i'd put it up here and see what everyone else had to say.

Well I'm of Russian descent so I'll give my $0.02.
Fedor's standup is, aside from the leg grabs and throws, straight up western boxing and as such is mainly sportive endeavoring to remain squared off to the opponent. There is a distinct if only momentary separation of offense and defense whereas in ILC as far as I have seen to date both occur simultaneously - attack the attack. Additionally, in ILC I believe getting 90 and giving 45 is a core principle. Still one can not argue with the success of slipping punches and bobbing and weaving (they have so far kept my face intact) and I actually prefer to make my fists slightly angled like Fedor though I keep my hands open until punching.

is there anybody in ILC who's not russian? LOL! even i have a ukranian great-grand parent or two. :D

anyway, there's some things about the clip that i thought were interesting. for instance i would have thought that the idea of slipping a punch was fairly much well within the realm of western boxing, but alex showed me some things last year when i was working with dasha which were very similar and he just basically broke it down into frontal plane and hip roll.

whether or not Sifu teaches that as part of the san da curriculum i don't know, but it sort of opened my eyes a bit to the limits of my understanding of the art.

it was sort of similar to the time we spent watching dekkers v. jamhod. if you only looked at it with a limited sort of understanding then you'd just see a mostly boring thai boxing match, but if you looked at it differently then you saw the sense of timing and distance (which essentially was an expression of their awareness) and even jamhod using some sticky hand to bridge and enter. it really changed the way i look at ILC as well as other arts.

Was what Alex showed you hands on or hands off? I would think that at medium to close range engaging (contact) and moving oneself or one's opponent off center would be more in keeping with ILC.

that's exactly what i mean though! i think sometimes we get so caught up in the idea of sticking that we get stuck there (on that concept). Sifu has often said in the past that you have to go through the levels of "first you have to sick to him, then you make him have to stick to you, then you can break (all together)".

the way i understand it is that your sense of timing, distance and the point is so refined that you can maintain fullness (i.e. opponent can't penetrate your sphere and can't effect your mass) even without having actual physical contact.

sometimes it's as simple as, if you can just strike in (i.e. opponent is not full) then just strike in. you don't need to be fancy about it.

[/quote] Additionally, in ILC I believe getting 90 and giving 45 is a core principle.[/quote]
Hey guys. Looks like boxing to me too but the actual intention and strategy can be hidden. And I think that boxing is a pretty effective skill to have as an adjunct to ILC. Marty I am not aware of the 90/45 concept above, could you discuss a bit more?

actually i think it would be cool if everyone could jump in here. since i'm here, i'll go first. ;)

in my understanding, i think you can basically break it down to;

90° is the angle you want to maintain with respect to your force relative to your opponents mass

while 45° is the angle you want to create or maintain with respect to your opponents force relative to your mass, and also the point of contact. if you can create a 45° angle at the point, it's tough for the opponent to grab or even apply force (i.e. "no landing").

what do you think marty?

chris, who are you training with? (just curious)

I understand this to mean that force at a 90 degree angle can puncture the sphere of defense and attack the mass, while force hitting the sphere of defense at a 45 degree angle will be deflected and leave the mass unaffected. Just think of hitting the edge of a spinning ball - your hand will bounce right off. Thus you attack at a 90 degree angle and try to deflect incoming force by creating a 45 degree angle at the point of contact.

Peter

Yes, this is how I understand the strategy. So while there is no fixed response in dealing with an incoming punch at medium to close range, one way as I see in keeping with this principle it is to attack the strike while moving off center giving your opponent 45 (which places him in a disadvantaged position) and gives you 90 for continued attack. Now, at a greater distance one should be able to negate an attack by applying this principle of only giving one's opponent 45 by continually changing as he changes.

OK, got it guys. Thanks, that makes sence. I can't recall hearing of the strategy being described that way but I wouldn't be suprised if it isn't on some list of "things to keep in mind" while you're not thinking about what you're doing.
Ashe I've been with the Loftus St. mob for about 6 years now, before that I trained several different external and internal styles and have settled on ILC. I'm middle aged, a fit 55 years old, and have shifted my focus onto longevity rather than getting too juiced up sparring. I've found my recovery periods take longer and longer. But it's great too see the photos etc. like Gongfu posted and get a buzz vicariously through other members taking advantage of the skills on the mat that ILC offers. I wish I'd found this art a little earlier because I've always had a personal style of closing the gap and I particularily enjoyed the JJ skills I've learned. I'm not the least bit suprised that ILC practitioners do well in the ring if you have an apptitude for sparring and some background skills in what to do after you make contact (and take control!).
A good session spinning keeps me satisfied and our group tends to keep it all fairly soft and we work on sensitivity and the mindfullness practice.

cool. cool.

Sifu has been stressing the 90/45 a lot over the last year or so.

My Sifu has answered the question about Fedor. The translation is posted below.

Difficult to comment anything here. He performs an ordinary technic, adopted to MMA rules. Goes away from the attack line, then series, then pushes, throws. He speaks about listening the opponent during throwing him. But in general it is all similar with other fighters.If he spoke about the way he generates power, how he controls the opponent, how he splits the mental and physical, then we had something to discuss.
Anyway, he is the great fighter with well-developed reaction and automatisms, refined technics and very well-thinking. But lots of fighters posess such qualities. And his technic can hardly bring anything new to the interested people.
The question is, there did he get such brilliant timing? Such refined feeling of time and space? I suppose it is the result of his natural talent, revealed during the permanent hard training and fights with the highest world-class opponents.

P.S.
One curious moment. When Fedor just started to fight in Pride, he looked for the chance og grabbing, trying to throw the opponent. Some time later my club's director said, that Fedor started to fight in iliqchuan manner. I watched some of his recent fights and saw, that he started to use lots of punches and kicks. He tried to aviod clintch, and used shot pushes to free from the grab and getting the distance for the attack. He maintained in clintch only when there was no way to punch and kick.
And in that moment the opponent got to know that Fedor is great in throwing and in parter.
It really looks like the iliq idea of controlling and off-balancing the partner with further powerfull attack.

This tactics is most likely the result of "energy saving" idea, because every wrestling needs lot of strengh, and punching technic allowes to distribute the strengh more effective during the whole fight.

translation of the next post:

I just looked Fedor's recent workshop. It consists of 7 parts! My opinion about him is still the same, but his work in parter is great. He showes excellent skill in moving the centers of mass and the centers of support of the body, his feeling of the contact point and using "the lever" force.
There are some ILC principles in his actions, especially when speaking about using and neutralising the force in the contact point, 90-45, concave-convect, etc. But his force is still not completed, it is not the force of the whole body.
My Sifu says: "There is no ILC in parter, because 6 physical principles can not be realised. But if you need parter, so train it".