Dozing off?
 

Does anyone else drift off and fall asleep during meditation? I assume this happens to me since most of my meditation time comes either in the early morning or late evening when my mind is either not completely awake or exhausted from a long day.

When we used to have the Bronx class on Monday nights in the Temple of Enlightenment, Rev. Ji Ru would teach and lead us in meditation for the last 30-45 minutes. I distinctly remember someone asking that very same question about feeling sleepy/falling asleep during mediation, and the Abbot's response was that sleepiness during meditation was one of the "evils". :shok: :D

The way I approached it was by treating sleepiness as I would treat my mind wandering during meditation, that is by paying attention to the method, and keeping alert and "watchful". I never let myself just relax and "chill", but tried to practice with the same mindfulness as when doing standing or dynamic meditation. I know it's more difficult when doing seated meditation, and if you are tired and sleepy to begin with, even tougher. Maybe try watching your mind and body with your "mind's eye" more closely, and if you catch yourself relaxing and dozing off, go back to the method. Hope this makes some sense.

sinking mind.

i think it's best to just not meditate if you're sleepy. find some time when your not as drained to practice.

of course you can try to train like adrian described but i think it takes a fair amount of discipline to begin with to try and be mindful of the process of falling asleep without actually falling asleep. ;)

from the little i know, i never thought it was bad to fall asleep, its just your body naturally telling you to get more sleep-so when i do fall doze off i will just start up again when i awake as if nothing happened

hey welcome aboard!

Sometimes if I meditate lying down I can be mentally alert yet hear myself snoring:confused: It makes me think that my body is sleeping without me.
I also do Reiki treatments for people and they often get into this state. Through my research, I found that there are 4 states of mind, Beta, Alpha, Theta and Delta. Each state is associated with different electrical brain wave patterns, roughly Beta is normal wakefulness, Alpha is light meditation or being absorbed in something, Theta is a deep meditational state and Delta is sleep. Through looking inwards ie 13 points, absorb/project, etc. we are effectively altering our brain states. It's my postulation that we would be best at our art if we operate from an aware Theta state. My reason comes from Sikung's statement that you don't 'win' it's your opponent that 'loses', because your awareness is constantly on yourself , the changing of conditions and maintaining harmony within.
Any thoughts?
Steve

Which way are you meditating - stading? sitting? when you lie?

When you are tired and do it in the lieing position, it is natural. And there is nothing bad in it.

You do not practice your meditation skills this way, but you simply get some rest.

Same here. I also do some yoga classes along with ILiqChuan. And we are having "shavasana" after the classes - lying with lights off, eys closed, etc. This happens quite late in the evening. So sometimes I "dift away".
And within the last 6 months I more and more often undrstand that sometimes a fall asleep and at the same time I'm able to understand this. Sometimes I even see dreams and understand at the same time that I'm doing this.
So it looks like the mind is off, while I'm still consious and aware of what's going on.

Eactly, I feel absolutly the same. And it looks like without this state of mind we will not be able to feel all the 13 points, etc. We will be limited by the standard 7+/-2 rule.
This deconcentrated state seems to be what we need to be able to see all the points that are important for ILiqChuan.
I can describe this as concentrating on constantly keeping this de-concentrated state at wich you simply notice what is going all with all the 13 points, etc.
And all the ILiqChan training should be done in this state - all the basic exercises, partner work, etc.
And in fact, the whole day should be in the altered state of mind.

Anyone else to joing this discussion?

Ways to avoid sleeping/meditation
 

Within the practice of Shamatha a training method developing a mind that holds steady on its object of concentration there are two types of "sinking".

The first of these is called "gross sinking", which happens when your mind/body actually fall asleep. This is generally to be avoided, because it can easily become a habit and it wastes your meditation time and devalues your good intention to spend time meditating. There are several fixes for this problem. First, if you close your eyes during meditation, you are encouraged to open them, at least partly. If your mind runs away too much with visual phenomena, then open your eyes towards a blank wall, or close your eyes, but face a strong light source/window.

Other postural fixes for gross sinking that I involve changing you meditation pose. If you sit in a chair, make sure you don't lean against the backrest. If you need a chair because floor postures are uncomfortable, try sitting on a swiss exercize ball, these will keep your posture upright and alert.

If you sit on a floor cushion I have discovered what are often called portable/travel cushions, these are a cover over an inflated (basket ball sized) bladder. These are very stable and comfortable when you are alert, but will wake you with a start if you drift off.

Finally, try meditating while standing or walking. I prefer standing because I do like to mostly close my eyes but many vipasshiona meditation halls have an indoor or outdoor track that you walk back and forth on to meditate.

These various techniques can be used to get you past the gross sinking phase. The second type of sinking is called subtle sinking and it occurs when your concentration while unbroken becomes soft and indistinct. The analogy is visual fogginess, in the same way your mental clarity, your moment-by-moment presence dulls a little though it doesn't run away altogether. Good luck with your practice

Thanks for the tips, jsynder.

I may look into getting myself an inflatible travel cushion. My wife has permanently borrowed my zafu/zabuton, so the cushion idea might be a good solution for me.