Good/bad points of practicing forms?

[Peter]

I come from a martial arts background without any form work, and always found the concept of doing forms to be a bit odd. I have also heard many passionate arguments for and against forms - they contain the condensed wisdom of generations of martial artists, they're a waste of time, they help train the body to learn necessary movement patterns, they give the person practicing the form a false sense of security (i.e., mastering a form does not necessarily equal martial ability).

As sort of an informal poll, I would like to hear what you think about doing form work, and whether or not your attitude towards forms has evolved over time.

Peter

[ashe]

Well, one point in favor of the form is as a tool to check yourself with. Many of the applications are next to impossible to make work without circle to center/center to center, etc. So if you're trying to demo applications and you can't make them work smoothly, you know you still have work to do.

[Qiang]

I think forms can be a good training tool. Like Ashe said, they're a good way to check yourself. They also provide a means of practice when you're by yourself. I know that I don't have continual access to practice partners, so solo exercises and form are the brunt of my practice.

The downside to forms is when they're used improperly. Just like using a wrong tool for a job, using forms incorrectly gives poor results. Performing a form mindlessly without any understanding of the body mechanics or attention to the movements is pretty much useless.

[Peter]

 Сообщение от ashe

Well, one point in favor of the form is as a tool to check yourself with.

What do you mean by "a tool to check yourself with"? Do you mean doing the form as a solo practice, or training the applications within the form with a partner to see if they work? I actually do both, but was curious what you primarily had in mind.

Peter

[ashe]

really we just have the 21 and butterfly as a form of common ground that Sifu can fall back on to help discuss and demonstrate certain principles and concepts.

[Chris Newell]

I think that the forms in this style are designed to basically help to demonstrate the principles of what we are learning e.g. the 15 basics, and put them into a dynamic context and trains the body mechanics. In many styles the forms are an integral part of the grading system too. I like forms as part of the mix and it would be nice if we had a few more in my opinion.
I’ve been training the butterfly this year because I want to go for a grading in Aug when Sam comes over. I have found myself also practicing the mirror image of the form we are taught. I.e. at the end, instead of closing I start again and step forward with my left leg and then go through the form as a mirror image of the first round. It’s a good brain exercise too! I got this idea because last year a few of our club completed locally and one comment was the Butterfly form “was a bit short” so I thought OK, I’ll repeat it and do a slight shift by changing the L & R handedness of it.

[Peter]

I was at a seminar this past weekend in Riga, Latvia, and Sifu devoted almost an entire day to teaching various applications from the 21 Form. Understanding how a movement is actually used in an application radically changes one's understanding of the the form itself . E.g., a minor rotation of the forearm may be necessary to lock the opponent's wrist or shoulder, which could be a precondition for the effectiveness of an application. This new awareness then goes back into how the Form is executed, making the movements even more exact. Without this awareness, the practitioner is just waving around his arms, and the form serves no martial purpose.

Thus for me the 21 Form is an ever-evolving training tool which is constantly being revised and refined as my awareness grows.

Peter

[ensatus]

 Сообщение от Peter

Without this awareness, the practitioner is just waving around his arms, and the form serves no martial purpose.
Peter

As a beginner (which I am), I was first eager to understand the application behind every movement of the form, as it made no sense for me without it. Then however, I was told by my sifu that "one and the same exercise can serve training different purposes. You just have to know what exactly you are training and focus on that." So in my case it was first to focus on my feeling of the body and keeping the structure, and only then appication of separate movements, as one cannot absorb all of this at once when learning. And actually I tend to agree on that - as only when you have succeeded in what you previously were after, you can go to the next level, to the next curve in the upgoing spiral or, if you like, the next layer of the onion, what you guys have been talking about so many times.

Nevertheless, looking into each movement of the form and its application was very useful for progressing and understanding the meaning behind it, and I am thankful to Sigun Sam for showing and explaining that to us.

[Peter]

 Сообщение от ensatus

... only when you have succeeded in what you previously were after, you can go to the next level, to the next curve in the upgoing spiral or, if you like, the next layer of the onion ...

That's definitely been my experience. By the way - welcome to the English ILC forum! Your English is excellent. Did we meet at the seminar in Riga?

Peter

[ensatus]

 Сообщение от Peter

That's definitely been my experience. By the way - welcome to the English ILC forum! Your English is excellent. Did we meet at the seminar in Riga?

Thank you Peter. Yes, we met at the seminar, however we did not talk as far as I remember. I had a chance to speak to Miro though.
I am that beginner guy who dared to ask some stupid questions and took the pictures of you all after the grading.