ILC doesn't really look like .... anything

[Peter]

I've always associated martial arts with characteristic movements. Someone trained in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido or Boxing generally has easily recognizable patterns of movements. For example, you can watch a clip and think: that's a Wing Chun guy fighting a boxer, or a BJJ guy fighting someone trained in Aikido, and so on.

However, when I watch someone trained in I Liq Chuan, I don't see such clear-cut movements.

ILC has produced at least two practitioners who are successful in martial arts competitions, Dasha in Russia and Ashe in the United States.

I recently watched a couple of their clips on YouTube, and wondered where the I Liq Chuan was in their fighting style:

Dasha's win in Moscow Sanda tournament (Dasha in red):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KZIS...e=channel_page

Ashe competing in a tournament:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5H_fhQ6UEc

So even after studying ILC for about 1 1/2 years, I wasn't able to see anything in the above matches that told me "This is an ILC fighter."

This prompted me to ask Ashe about it, and with Ashe's approval, I'll quote his answer to my email below.

me:
"Where is the I Liq Chuan in the fight? To me, everything looked like a pure boxing & kicking match. I didn't see a single thing that reminded me of I Liq Chuan."

Ashe:
"this is something that comes up quite a lot. the first thing you have to realize is fighting looks like fighting, but beyond that you should go back and watch it again and look for the clues.

13 points - does she maintain her 13 points throughout the fight?

six physical principles - does she follow them?

does she make use of the mirroring to guard and bridge?

does she use upper hand?

does she harmonize with the conditions. this includes time and space (i.e. rhythm and distance)

another thing to keep in mind when watching again is that a fight happens so fast, that the whole upper hand process of flow, fend, control and jam and happen in a fraction of a second. for instance if you bridge and jam the opponents strike, they may not recognize that they're in danger and just jerk their hand away, in which case you have to strike in right away. the opportunity is so brief, it can just look like "slappy hands", but to the two people on the mat it feels different.

also, it's a sport fight, wearing boxing gloves and head gear, which is limiting in many ways. so it's dasha using ILC under those conditions."

So maybe "ILC not looking like anything" is a result of ILC not training specific techniques - i.e., each fighter does his/her own thing based on recognizing their own unique physical limits & strengths, rather than memorizing pre-ordained patterns of movement?

Peter

[Miro]

This is a good topic, Peter.
What about this: The three mental factors, Present, Formless and Neutral and the Feel of Suchness are the necessary conditions for a fight. If one is in the state of the above factors, there is no place for anything else. No thoughts, no forms. A style is also a form. It is an opinion of someone on fighting. How can one manifest a style if he is supposed to be formless? He wouldn't be formless if he did. He also wouldn't be present and neutral.

Sifu often refers to a "melting pot" in course of his seminars. I understood that he means by this also a certain "de-stilization" and "de-personification" as a necessary conditions for learning.

[Vatican]

The translation of the thread is posted at the Russian section.

[Marty]

I think that I Liq Chuan, despite not being technique driven, would be more recognizable in a street fight than in a sporting event where there are rules, restrictions and protective equipment.

[ashe]

 Сообщение от Vatican

The translation of the thread is posted at the Russian section.

Now you're required to keep us up to date on the Russian side of the conversation!

Did you download those videos yet?

[Vatican]

Hi， Ashe！ Yes， of course i'll translate as soon as thhere is anything new at the russian part of the topic.

[Bmeeks0]

The Tai Chi I've learned is very very similar to ILC in method and strategy. I talk about my Tai CHi because I'm still an ILC noob.

Some of the student in the TAi Chi class would say the same thing, "Where's the Tai Chi"

my opinion is that for an art that isn't technique based its much harder to "see" it unless the practicioner has much more skill than the oponent.

A agree with Ashe, if the person is following the principles of the art then they are doing the art no matter what it looks like.

I haven't seen Ashe's fight but Dasha looked good. To me, she didn't look like a kickboxer. Theres a quality of movement involved.

My 2 cents.

[ashe]

 Сообщение от Bmeeks0

my opinion is that for an art that isn't technique based its much harder to "see" it unless the practitioner has much more skill than the opponent.

but the thing about that is, even if someone can do a certain posture in real time, from an ILC perspective, that's still "rubbish". (IMO)

there's two reasons;

1. using a specific technique is based on intent, or another way of saying is that the person intends for their move to look a specific way, and that's not the same as just harmonizing with the conditions to perform the APPROPRIATE action.
2. even if you have a high level of ability to flow and feed, and so you can manipulate the opponent into a position the you can execute a given technique, that's still not the ILC way, which is the "art of offense". when the opening is there you just take it. you don't need to do anything fancy, which might take a few moves to "set up".

[Marty]

There are certain concepts and principles that I believe should manifest themselves to an ILC observer in the course of a fight ie. the four strategies.

[Bmeeks0]

 Сообщение от ashe

but the thing about that is, even if someone can do a certain posture in real time, from an ILC perspective, that's still "rubbish". (IMO)

there's two reasons;

1. using a specific technique is based on intent, or another way of saying is that the person intends for their move to look a specific way, and that's not the same as just harmonizing with the conditions to perform the APPROPRIATE action.
2. even if you have a high level of ability to flow and feed, and so you can manipulate the opponent into a position the you can execute a given technique, that's still not the ILC way, which is the "art of offense". when the opening is there you just take it. you don't need to do anything fancy, which might take a few moves to "set up".

I wasn't trying to say that a person should do a move from the form or whatever. I meant "see it" meaning the... flavor... of it. Does that make sense? I would never do a tai chi form move no matter how much more skilled I am than my opponent. I would be able to act without creating resistance or force between myself and the opponent. And that would have Tai Chi-ishness to it. Same as what you say, when the opportunity presents itself you act on it.